Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Furnace, air conditioning, thermostats, distribution.
bdub
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:48 pm

Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by bdub »

A long thread stemming from a simple question on Facebook. I'm saving it here because of the near impossible task of finding it again. Some very good information here / some dis-information as well. ...

Facebook is NOT a good place to store important information.

=========================================

Robert Eric Malone
February 10 at 1:33 PM

Does anyone use there Hurricane Heater we are getting our repaired and haven’t had the chance to use it....


Jeff Jordan / Yes


Charles Smith / Yes I do and love it.


Robert Eric Malone > Charles Smith does it burn a lot diesel fuel?


Charles Smith > Robert Eric Malone depends on weather conditions and your thermostat settings. I have my 40' serengeti parked for the winter and have my thermostats set at 45° and have used about 20 gallons sense December 1st. I live in the Seattle area. I think the manual rates the maximum amount of fuel the burner uses is .25 gallons per hour. There is also calrods allowing the shore power to heat the system. 30 Amp service allows you to run one and 50 amp service allows you to run both. Also when you are on the road the main engine adds heat to the system while you are driving. Hope that helps.

Charles Smith > Robert Eric Malone that should read 1/4 gallon.


Robert Eric Malone > Charles Smith, it did thank you, we are only using the shore or generator power for the cal rods but I wanted to get that Hurricane Heater fixed and the place found the igniter missing out of it.....


Jeff Jordan Robert Eric Malone their specs, if I recall correctly, are about 1 gallon of diesel per 5 hours of burner run time.


Robert Eric Malone > Jeff Jordan that’s not bad at all thank you Jeff


Robert Eric Malone > Jeff Jordan I got to get the Manuel out and see how to use it..... I k ow my A/C does put out heat when I use the thermostat


Robert Eric Malone Charles Smith okay


Jeff Jordan > Robert Eric Malone it’s fairly simple to use. There should be a master switch located on the system control box in the basement where the hurricane is. The switch should be on. Then there’s a system switch inside the coach. Turn it on and turn your fan switches on. Probably 1 in the bedroom and 1 on the panel with the system switch. Your ac thermostats when set to heat will activate the fans inside the cabin when the temperature is below the thermostat set point.

Regardless of cabin temperature, the furnace will fire when turned on to bring the boiler up to operating temperature. It will run for quite a while while it makes hot water. Once up to temperature it will cycle on and off as the system demands heat.


Robert Eric Malone > Jeff Jordan just the info I needed thanks Jeff..... yeah we suppose to get back this week and I’ll can’t wait To try it we have a 2000 Safari Serengeti and we love it..... 3126b cat
I’m used to driving 92 series Detroit and to drive Cat it’s different but I’m learning...


Billy Massey > Charles Smith Cal Rods?
I don't think I have these in our '98 Serengeti. At least I haven't found a way to make that happen with shore power.

Our Hurricane works well but I cannot figure out how to make it warm the engine block or cause engine heat to contribute to the Hurricane system. Can you help me with that?


Jeff Jordan > Billy Massey my understanding is the engine block heater was an additional add on requiring an additional circulation pump to circulate the water warmed by the heat exchanger. There could possibly be a small degree of circulation through your engine block just by way of natural convective currents from the heat exchanger.

If you have a switch, like on mine, labeled engine heat, what that does is turn on the hurricane circulation pump so that the heat exchanger in the engine can use the engine’s coolant loop to heat the hurricane system’s coolant loop. Thus you would have hot water in the hurricane system without the need to fire the hurricane boiler.

It doesn’t work in reverse (hurricane heating engine block) because the engine’s coolant is not being circulated with the engine off, unless you had that optional block heat pump.

I would imagine a savvy person could figure a way to plumb an additional pump into the engine coolant loop and wire a switch to turn it on and off.
1

Bill Edwards > Jeff Jordan I think you answered the 64,000 dollar question...I have to get a pump. Thanks another mystery solved maybe
2

Charles Smith > Billy Massey preheating the main engine is an option and requires a separate pump and heat exchanger. If your panel dosen't have a switch labeled preheat then it's not installed. The main engine heat exchanger doesn't have the capacity to completely eliminate the need for the burner. It is possible that someone has installed a shutoff valve or disconnected the hoses.
The calrods on mine are located in both sides of the expansion tank and the switches are located at the head end of the bed near the floor and look like household light switches.
1

Bill Edwards / I have the switch on the panel but it does not light or anything else that ii can determine. Heat exchanger,? Where located? Look like? Pump location? Look like the primary?


Billy Massey > Charles Smith Thanks.
I have nothing in the expansion tank but input / output hoses and overflow catch can.
Have not found a switch or valve that I don't know what it's for. Seems a waste not to be able to use it to preheat the engine. Darn it!


Paul Pecnik > Bill Edwards this thing has the pump. There is a switch at the bottom of the bed on the drivers side.


Billy Massey /This, a two way valve and a little plumbing would do the trick.
https://www.toolots.com/30-plates-hofma ... 4-30-1-npt...
Top Quality Hofmann HFM14-30 1'' NPT Copper Brazed Plate Heat Exchanger
toolots.com
Top Quality Hofmann HFM14-30 1'' NPT Copper Brazed Plate Heat…
Top Quality Hofmann HFM14-30 1'' NPT Copper Brazed Plate Heat Exchanger


Charles Smith > Billy Massey they have different models mabey someone else can help.
1

Billy Massey > Charles Smith Thanks for your input.


Billy Massey > Jeff Jordan I don't think conventional electric block heaters have a pump involved, relying completely on convection heating. I know they're probably way hotter than the hurricane 180*. It'd help at least without a pump..


Robert Lewis > Bill Edwards I don't think you need a pump. The switch on the hurricane for the engine is not a pump, it enables a zone control sensor that the controller factors into the control loop the firing the burner. The single pump is used, the valve switches in the engine at determine the circular flow.


Bill Edwards / Hum, mine does nothing


Bill Edwards / The braised plate exchanger that Billy Massey mentions may not be thick enough. The one that ITR cells is almost 2 inches thick and works outstandingly well. It would replace the original 15 pound duel copper tube unit. When mine froze I replaced it with one of these from ITR.


Billy Massey / OK, it's not getting over 40* today in Central Texas so I went out and ran an experiment.
At 1100 Engine was 37*, Hurricane circulation lines were ~42* as I've got a cube heater running in the basement. Started the engine. Switched the Water Heater to ON.

at 1130
Engine 137*
Circulation Hose 91*

at 1145
Engine 150*
Circ Hose 101*

at 1200
Engine 155*
Circ Hose 106*

The house heater vents were blowing ~100* air as well when momentarily checked. It was evident that all I had to do to get hot water from the engine heat was to make sure the water heater was in the ON position so that the circulation pump would run. That switch should read "Water Heater / Engine Heat"

Now, after being shut down for 3 hours, I'll go back and run the Hurricane system while watching the engine temperature closely. I'll bet it'll work in the opposite manner, warming the engine.

WRONG ! Engine was 83* when I started the Hurricane. Kept getting lower till I finally gave up 1-1/2 hours later when temp was then 76*. Circ lines 120* or so. I even cranked the engine for just a minute to see if perhaps a hot spot circulated, raising the temp. No dice. :-( Can't find any sort of a switch in, around, on lower bed platform or inside engine box.
#@&*!

I just keep on learning about this rig!


Jeff Jordan > Billy Massey


Jeff Jordan / I’m assuming you were not running the hurricane boiler. Never mind. I just missed the last couple of paragraphs of your post.

Unless you have the engine heater option on the hurricane it most likely will not provide much heating. Certainly not enough to warm that huge chunk of metal. The reason being the engine coolant will not be circulating with the engine off without the engine heater option.


John Ruff > Bill Edwards I resemble that remark. I have a preheat switch. I have a heat exchanger in the engine compartment. Would love to see a photo of the engine compartment circulation pump and the color of the wires feeding it power.


Billy Massey > Robert Lewis Please say that again, slowly please.


Bill Edwards / Now I am only half confused...now you do, now you don’t. This is getting interesting... I know the water heater does not figure into the engine heat aspect as the element is not large enough, 1500 watts and too far away, too much water to heat effectively. Possibly as Jeff Jordan or Robert Lewis explain it. Thought John Ruff had it but it did not work as the latter explained...


Jeff Jordan > Bill Edwards I’m not an expert but as I said before I don’t believe the hurricane can heat the engine without the optional add on. The engine coolant system is a closed loop. The hurricane coolant system is a closed loop. The heat is transferred via a heat exchanger. With the engine hot and running, it’s coolant system is circulated with the engine water pump providing plenty of hot water to the heat exchanger which is transferred into the hurricane loop IF the hurricane pump is running. The “engine heat” switch turns on said pump without firing the hurricane boiler. Provided you’ve set your valves to “winter mode” you’ll have hot water at the registers.

Without a second pump in the engine coolant loop, the water that is being heated at the hurricane/engine heat exchanger via the hot water created by the hurricane boiler will not circulate into the engine or only minimally so via convective currents. That’s how it works in my mind. Whether that touches on reality is debatable.


John Ruff >Bill Edwards for what it's worth.

I turned on the outside master Hurricane switch.

I turned on the remote Indoor Hurricane switch.

I did NOT turn on any furnace or fan switches.

I drove for 45 minutes and had plenty of hot water when I stopped.

I believe when you first turn on what I did, the furnace ignites and starts heating water and also activates the circulation pump.

As the engine heats up, it then heats the water in the Hurricane system, instead of the furnace producing the heat. One circulation pump.


John Ruff > Bill Edwards if you turn on all your Hurricane switches to the same position as you do when parked and then drive down the highway, the engine will heat the water and the furnace will not burn diesel.

Just like your dash heater does not have a circulation pump, it uses the engines water pump.


Bill Edwards > John it did not work that way, the boil er ran the entire time


John Ruff > Bill Edwards did you try swearing at it?


Jeff Jordan > Bill Edwards flip your engine heat switch on with the hurricane system switch off and listen to hear if you can hear the the pump running


Bill Edwards / Oh the pump runs


Bill Edwards / Swear yes of course first thing I tried


Jeff Jordan > Bill Edwards then if you still don’t have heat to the furnace registers with a hot, running engine then you’ve likely got your valves set to summer mode


Bill Edwards / I have heat just fine if boiler is running and fans on


Jeff Jordan > Bill Edwards the summer mode/ winter mode valves only isolate the engine heater water so even if you had the valves in summer mode your hurricane would make hot water for the registers.

Maybe this schematic from the hurricane manual might clear things up a bit. Note that the summer mode still allows the engine heat to make hot water for the domestic water heater but doesn’t send hot water to the registers
No photo description available.


Robert Lewis / The hurricane heating system I have is a four Zone. system. Two zones are the thermostat controls for cabin heat on the wall. One other zone is for the engine heat and the last is for the water heater. There are two factors controlling the heat system, the temperature of the coolant which is determined by the diesel burner on with the pump running, the other is when one of the Zone's calls for heat. So if the cabin temperature is low. the fans run that are in the cabin, when the thermostat reaches the correct temperature the fans shut off. The same is true for the water-heater which is monitored and the diesel burner is started to heat the coolant to keep the water heater at operating temperature. The same is true for the engine Heat exchanger. If the hurricane switch is set to engine Heating and the valves are set to pipe the hurricane coolant through the engine heat exchanger, then the sensor for the engine heat exchanger triggers the diesel burner and pump to run to bring the coolant up to temperature. This would be used for cold starting weather. When the engine is running the engine heat is transferred through the heat exchanger in the engine compartment into the hurricane coolant system, heating the hot water tank. When parked in the summer or on shore power it is probably best to keep the engine heating switch off and set the valves for the hurricane coolant from running through the engine heat exchanger. because extra energy will be absorbed to heat the engine cooling system, for no purpose.

I have repaired the logic board in the hurricane and also have to repair the relay board. In the presentation, so I did on the hurricane system I described these failures. When I finish the presentation for the Relay board I'll post a presentation on that with a better explanation.


Bill Edwards > Robert Lewis my Hurricane does not have any kind of control to the water heater to clue the boiler or anything else. It just gets frickin HOT! Too hot to use and must be tempered. I have not looked yet at Jeff Jordan‘s point on the valve position. Now he may have the solution, will check in a couple days as we head North to Asheville and since it will be again cooler than in Mississippi and Florida. Thanks for all the input on this, I am sure there are several others learning from it all. Jeff Jordan I will get the manual out and have a look too B


Bill Edwards > Robert Lewis where is the zone sensor for engine heat you refer to and what does it look like? I need to pull the panel loose and ck the ,wiring as when I turn on the switch for engine heat it does not light and see if ther is anything hooked to it.


Charles Smith > Bill Edwards there is no zone sensor for engine preheat. Only a switch to turn on the pump that moves the heated water from the furnace to the engine heat exchanger. Engine preheat is an option and not installed on all units. If you don't have a second pump then you don't have preheat.


Billy Massey > Bill Edwards It'd be a dedicated Aquastat as at the boiler and water heater. Probably near the heat exchanger location on the engine.
But, like Charlie said, it's not necessary since the Hurricane cannot overheat it. You either want it hot or not.

I'm dissapointed that my coach doesn't have an engine heat option. As it seems all it would take is that single Aquastat to enable the system. After all, the heat exchanger is evidently in place since it provides heat to the water heater / circulation lines. :-(

I can't understand why, with the pump running, that the heat from the boiler is not transferred through the engine heat exchanger to the engine when it works fine in the opposite direction.


Jeff Jordan > Billy Massey because the pump that runs is circulating coolant in the closed loop of the hurricane system. The engine coolant system is a separate closed loop and would need a pump running to circulate the coolant heated in the exchanger into the engine.

It works in reverse because with the engine running the water pump is circulating said coolant.


Billy Massey > Jeff Jordan That does sound logical and I understand it completely.

So, there MUST be another (probably centrifugal) 12v pump in the engine coolant plumbing somewhere, operated by that "Engine Heat" switch.
However, there is not one indicated in the diagram.

Also, I can't help but wonder about the electric Block Heaters that do not use a circulation pump.

Thank you for your input.


Jeff Jordan > Billy Massey the pump that is operated by the engine heat switch is located, on my coach, in the basement with the hurricane heater. It is the same pump that runs when the hurricane system is on. What the switch does is allow that pump to run without the hurricane system being turned on. That way you can take advantage of the engine heat (circulated by the engine water pump) through the hurricane heat exchanger without firing the hurricane boiler.


Charles Smith > Billy Massey electric block heaters are a good alternative to the furnace and works well when there is a 120V outlet available. The downside is that they use a lot of current for a long time so other than home it isn't practical. Running the generator to power it is counterproductive to as running the generator for as long as needed heat from the generator would would spread under the coach and warm the engine enougt to start it. The airbox heater that comes on when you turn the key on should get you started as long as you wate till the light goes off before cranking. In extreme cold weather you may need to cycle it twice.


Billy Massey > Charles Smith I understand that. Was just using the block heaters as an example of obvious convection heat transfer. It seems that the Hurricane system just does not provide anywhere near enough heat for it to work in that manner.


Billy Massey > Jeff Jordan Yes. That is what I confirmed yesterday by turning on my Water Heater Switch. It caused the pump to run while the boiler was not activated.

So, if there is a circulation pump in the engine plumbing, how is that activated?


Jeff Jordan > Billy Massey my coach does not have that option so I can only speculate that there would be a separate switch. Maybe someone who has that option could chime in.


Charles Smith > Billy Massey I don't have that option either but a few months ago I made a trip to Oregon where a shop that used to be the distributer for the hurricane furnace did the service on mine and while describing how the hurricane furnace works spent 2 hours explaining everything in detail and answered my 100 or so questions. I asked about the engine preheat not knowing that my unit didn't have it and he explained how it would work and what I would need to install to make it work. I decided and he agreed that where I live and my normal travels it would not be worth it for me but said it was worth it if i lived in north Dakota or traveled there during the winter and it works well there.


Billy Massey > Charles Smith It would be nice to have "occasionally". ;-)


Billy Massey > Robert Lewis This thread is getting so large as to be somewhat confusing. So I'll quote the part of your post I refer to:
You said
"The same is true for the engine Heat exchanger. If the hurricane switch is set to engine Heating and the valves are set to pipe the hurricane coolant through the engine heat exchanger, then the sensor for the engine heat exchanger triggers the diesel burner and pump to run to bring the coolant up to temperature. This would be used for cold starting weather. When the engine is running the engine heat is transferred through the heat exchanger in the engine compartment into the hurricane coolant system, heating the hot water tank."

My questions:
1. Do you have an electric pump in the engine coolant loop to circulate that fluid?
2. If you have a diagram of your system that shows the engine coolant loop with it's associated "Hurricane Engine Heat Components", would you please share it with us.

Than you for your input


Charles Smith > Billy Massey yes it would!


Robert Lewis > Charles Smith There is just one pump for the entire system. The control of the hurricane is a loop control system... That is the control of the heat is constant to a predefined set point that the diesel burner is run on and off to hit. Heat is extracted from the coolant in 3 places, the cabin record exchangers and the fans blowing air over them. The hot water heater and the engine heat exchanger. There are 4 zone controls from the 3 heat absorption areas. When the heat/energy in the coolant drops due to heat being removed the diesel burner fires and runs the pump. The pump will run after the burner shuts down to draw heat from the exchanger so it doesn't excessively heat up. The engine heat exchanger extracts heat from the Hurricane coolant and transfers it to the engine coolant. As a side note I talked with the ITR people and many or most Safari motorhomes use engine coolant in the Hurricane loop because unlike the competitors ITR only uses stainless and brass so there is no galvanic corrosion and no pin holes. Back to the engine.... There is a sensor in the heat exchanger that will call for heat if the coolant is below the coolant set point. This is in series with the switch in the cabin control panel, if on this routes this signal to the large control board in the coach bay. This calls for heat from the diesel burner and turn on of the pump. This pump will transfer fluid and therefore heat to the engine heat exchanger which transfers heat to the engine coolant. But only if the valves are in the correct position to allow hot coolant from the Hurricane system to run thru the engine heat exchanger. This exchanger is in the engine bay on the firewall. I haven't looked from the engine heat exchanger sensor but will look. I won't go thru the reverse which is driving, heat from the engine heating the Hurricane coolant etc. I will remember to include this in the next video presentation I do on the Hurricane system. I will look for a diagram, but I will post them on the Safarifriends.org site. The reason is FB is hard to find topical posts by thread. And I will post in a new thread here
safarifriends.org
Safarifriends.org - Index page
Safarifriends.org - Index page


Bill Edwards > Robert Lewis you just answered the question I have had proper positioning of the valves on the engine heat exchanger which in my case is not in the engine compartment it is all the way up in the front of the coach in the hurricane Bay. But now I know. As for the sensor I don’t know where that is The only two sensors that I’m aware of are the two aqua stats that are in the top of the boiler.It is rainy weather today here in Pensacola Florida so I’m going to do a little hurricane work and check out the little red switch to see if there’s anything hooked to it on the control panel inside the coach


John Ruff > Bill Edwards the red switch has 3 contacts. Power in, power out and ground.

When turned on, the power out lug provides power to illuminate the switch. The ground lug is to complete the circuit for the bulbs power.


Charles Smith > John Ruff ha ha ha fooled you.


Jeff Jordan > Bill Edwards how long are you in PNS? Would love to meet you


Billy Massey > Robert Lewis
You said: "There is just one pump for the entire system."
That's incorrect. There are two pumps if the engine heat option is present.

You said: "As a side note I talked with the ITR people and many or most Safari motorhomes use engine coolant in the Hurricane loop because unlike the competitors ITR only uses stainless and brass so there is no galvanic corrosion and no pin holes.
I sincerely doubt that, as IF it were to ever mix with the potable water supply, the results would be deadly. Besides, with potable anti-freeze / boiler fluid easily available, what is there to gain?

You said: "There is a sensor in the heat exchanger that will call for heat if the coolant is below the coolant set point. This is in series with the switch in the cabin control panel, if on this routes this signal to the large control board in the coach bay. This calls for heat from the diesel burner and turn on of the pump. This pump will transfer fluid and therefore heat to the engine heat exchanger which transfers heat to the engine coolant. But only if the valves are in the correct position to allow hot coolant from the Hurricane system to run thru the engine heat exchanger."

This is incorrect. There is an auxiliary pump to circulate engine coolant that is invoked by a manually operated switch. There is no sensor involved. Also, the valves positions make no difference as their only purpose is to bypass the house heat registers.

==============

I agree about posting this on Facebook, especially when all this knowledge is buried as comments in a "non descriptive" thread. Perhaps I'll create a topic on Safarifriends.org in order to copy this thread entirely to for posterity.

Thank you for your vast knowledge base at Safaritoonces.org.
What is the model name & number of your Hurricane system?
safarifriends.org
Safarifriends.org - Index page
Safarifriends.org - Index page


Billy Massey / After much investigation, browsing through documents on the ITR web site, I see that simply referring to ones Hurricane Furnace is not sufficient. There are many iterations of this furnace with several optional features.
My unit in my '98 Serengeti is the model CO45D, which I believe is a very early one.

I found these interesting chapters in the Hurricane II manual which seem to be from the 2001 year model.
http://itrheat.com/.../2017/02/Hurrican ... Manual.pdf
9.4 Engine Pre-Heat Function
As an option, the heat exchanger can also be used to pre-heat an engine before starting it. Turn on the heater by a manual switch or timer wired to jumper the W-W terminal. If the heat exchanger is mounted upright, close to and near the bottom of the engine, it will transfer heat to the engine’s cooling system through gravity circulation. A more positive solution is to install a pump on the engine side of the heat exchanger wired to an external power supply in series with a master switch.
Pre-heating the engine makes it easier to start and it can be put under load immediately.
If installed, the optional engine pre-heat function is enabled by flipping a manual switch mounted inside the living area (not supplied), while the engine is off. This turns on the secondary engine pre-heat pump.
The manual switch and engine water pump are wired to the yacht's electrical system through the heater control board.

Page 10.5 Using the Electric Heating Elements
The electric heating element (optional) can be activated using the separate installed switch. If the switch has an indicator light, this light will come on. The electric heating element is operated independently from the control board. Sensors on the heater are monitoring the tank temperature and are controlling the activation of the heating element. When the tank reaches a certain temperature, the heating element will automatically shut off. The heating element draws 12.5 (3.1) Amps from the 120 (240) VAC circuit.

There are a great number of later manuals with diagrams on the Marine Heating Systems section. Seems that the RV products were re-named to Oasis at some time early on.


Billy Massey / I'd previously only studied the earliest, Hurricane Manual I could find which is the Hurricane_Operators_Manual_R4 found on Safari Friends (I think).


Robert Ingraham / We use ours but it needs some work. It uses the heat from the engine to heat the coach and hot water. Or heats the engine when it is cold.


Robert Ingraham / Where are you getting it repaired? I’m looking for a good repair location.


Robert Eric Malone > Robert Ingraham Rv shop up here in Victorville,Ca family Owned and real honest with you...


Robert Ingraham / Thanks


Jim McDaniel / We use it all the time. Works great.


John Ruff / I love mine.


Robert Lewis / There is a presentation on repairing the heater here. Https://safaritoonces.org

Also check the safarifriends.org site, there was a lot of information posted there. The Hurricane system is a really well built and supported system... If you don't let RV dealers start messing with it. You can do your own repairs and maintenance.
Saving Toonces | Safari Motor Home and Toonces the cat related stuff
safaritoonces.org
Saving Toonces | Safari Motor Home and Toonces the cat related stuff
Saving Toonces | Safari Motor Home and Toonces the cat related stuff


Robert Ingraham / Too late they already messed with it. Thanks for the information.


Bob N Annie DeSanti / Thinking about relocating to electric hot water switch out from the basement to the living room. Doesn't make sense to go outside to switch on a hot water heater when on shore power. Especially when we're Workamping and power's included. . .


John Ruff > Bob N Annie DeSanti why turn it off?


Bob N Annie DeSanti > John Ruff Eats juice when boondocking!


John Ruff / Just curious. What was wrong with it?


Bill Edwards > Bob n Bob N Annie DeSanti I agree completely! Plumb dumb but barely room to run another 12 ga wire up the frig cavity wall. Do not know if there is room

Jeff Jordan > Bill Edwards maybe something like this

https://www.amazon.com/RunLessWire-Simp ... B012H6QZVC

RunLessWire Simple Wireless Switch Kit, Self-Powered Rocker Switch, No Wire Light Control Kit
amazon.com
RunLessWire Simple Wireless Switch Kit, Self-Powered Rocker…
RunLessWire Simple Wireless Switch Kit, Self-Powered Rocker Switch, No Wire Light Control Kit


Bob N Annie DeSanti > Bill Edwards Our Hurricane basement hot water switch is mounted directly behind and under the pass. seat. Not an issue drilling a access hole to run Romex.


Bob N Annie DeSanti > Bill Edwards Just waiting for the afternoons to get a bit warmer..


Bob N Annie DeSanti / Apologies to Robert Eric Malone for hijacking your post :( Not cool.


Bill Edwards > Bob N Annie DeSant i I think you want the Romex in the basement run over to the fridge cabinet and then up. Look to see where it comes from in the basement as it comes from the rear of the coach not the front. You should be able to disconnect it as it Is and pull it back toward the fridge cabinet, reducing the length of the run substantially, always a good thing.


Bob N Annie DeSanti > Bill Edwards I was thinking about using a junction box, then going straight up to a switch.


Bill Edwards > Bob N Annie DeSanti I suppose in the lamp cabinet but alas a hack! Sorry Bob, put it where all the other active components are. I will help you next winter...seriously I would assuming I don’t have another cardiac event. How did the roof come out...clean and white? We are in Mobile Alabama on the USS Alabama. I was aboard it 50 odd years ago too.


Bob N Annie DeSanti > Bill Edwards The relocation of that switch is on the back burner for now. As for the rv roof; Real elbow grease scrubbing it with a stiff floor brush made it look almost like new! The issue with the finished results became apparent the next morning. Both sides, windows, chrome wheels were covered with mineral streaks left from whatever was on the roof along with the crap well water here. Took my 2+hours to clean the drivers side using clean water/vinegar solution and plenty of 'elbow grease' again. In the meantime we setup an appointment with a mobile wash company. A day before they arrived we had a heavy downpour. Low-and-behold, all the streaks were just about washed away. What's left I can manage to clean (chrome Wheels) cancelled the mobile wash and saved $150.00! What were you doing aboard The USS Alabama 50 +years ago? Here's where I was; Sweeping Naval Mines form the Tonkin Gulf.
Image may contain: ocean, outdoor and water


Bill Edwards > Bob N Annie DeSanti Very funny you should ask. I was just a kid arriving at my first duty station in Pensacola.. I drove over to Mobile to see the ship and have a personal look at what below decks looked like. I never cared if I ever saw another ship again. I subsequently continued with the berth I had established earlier and I never looked back. I taught instrument flight procedures for Huey’s for three years at Ellison Field. Ended up with prefered sea duty in Atsugi, Japan for a year.


Bob N Annie DeSanti > Bill Edwards Sasebo, Japan my home base. "Cept we was out at sea more than home.


Bill Edwards / Ok now get it painted, the Dicor will work just fine 5 + years


Robert Eric Malone > Bob N Annie DeSanti no problem I enjoyed reading it all


Robert Eric Malone / Yeah I just got to learn how to use when I get back and find out where that valve is for the engine to warm up it before starting
Billy Massey
40' 1998 Serengeti, 3621b Cat 300hp
2015 Willys
Brownwood, in the Heart of Texas
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05wingrider
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:26 pm
Location: Spokane, Washington

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by 05wingrider »

Since reading copies from FB are annoying at best, I went in and removed a whole bunch of the duplicate names and extra spaces, plus I added a > when someone messaged to another individual to make reading a little bit easier (hopefully). It's still hard to read, but maybe a little easier to follow?
...
Duane
96 Sahara 30', 250hp Cat 3126
Allison 6spd MD-3060
Spokane WA

TDJohn
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:34 pm

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by TDJohn »

bdub wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:38 pm
A long thread stemming from a simple question on Facebook. I'm saving it here because of the near impossible task of finding it again. Some very good information here / some dis-information as well. ...

Facebook is NOT a good place to store important information.

=========================================
Bill Massey,

May I kindly suggest that you encourage your fellow Safari FB folks to join this group/forum. This way technical issues and how they can be, or are resolved, can be preserved, and as you mentioned easily searched when needed. Let FB be the social side of things, like it is meant to be, and take advantage of this forum for the mechanical, and technical aspect of our Safari Coaches. This way it is a win win for everyone. :D
I would also mention, that there have been a whole lot of "guests" lurking around in the last few weeks, I would encourage these guests to not be shy and join in. The more knowledge and interaction shared the better.

As for the Hurricane heat, some may not realize, but Safari was known to install various systems "their own way", and not necessarily per manufacturers instruction. So, Robert and others, don't assume because ITR said one thing, that this is the way the system is setup.
Robert, your description of how your system is set up, is likely how it should have been set up. Unless someone improved the system, or you got lucky with a correct install, I doubt that your system and the systems on most of the other Safaris works as you described. Everything that I have read over the years, the Hurricane systems that were installed in the Safaris had the circulator pump run constantly, when the Hurricane system is turned on, and the boiler would keep the water temp within a predetermined range (using an aqua-stat) to provide endless hot water, and/or coach heat/engine heat as needed. With Safari, one should not assume anything, just because the ITR manual or their tech people state one thing, it most likely will not be the case on a Safari install. Unfortunately, Safari's setup is very inefficient, similar like their design and installation of the torsional suspension was terrible compared to Fortravel's setup of the same.
And yes, to be able to effectively warm up the engine block, a second circulator pump, in the engine coolant loop, would be needed. In theory, the system could work via convection, as mentioned by ITR, but it would take and awful long time to heat of that big block.
John
'95 Serengeti, Cummins C8.3-300
Allison 6spd.

bdub
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:48 pm

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by bdub »

I agree completely, Duane. I'd intended to do just that. Thanks for the help.
Billy Massey
40' 1998 Serengeti, 3621b Cat 300hp
2015 Willys
Brownwood, in the Heart of Texas
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bdub
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:48 pm

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by bdub »

I'll make an attempt, but Facebookers use it because of the simplicity and familiarity. Really hard to get away from that.
I'll try to keep an eye out for important technical subjects with worthwhile results and copy them to correct topic in SafariFriends.

I completely agree with you re Safari and Hurricane. Did not know about Foretravels iteration of the Torsilastic suspension. Perhaps in another topic, you would expand on that?
Thanks
Billy Massey
40' 1998 Serengeti, 3621b Cat 300hp
2015 Willys
Brownwood, in the Heart of Texas
Image

Safaritoonces
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:51 am
Location: Bowen Island, BC
Contact:

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by Safaritoonces »

Bill Massey

I agree with your comments on the lethal nature of using anti-freeze along side the fresh water system. That was how that infamous detective murdered his three wives; i.e. by putting very small amounts of anti-freeze into their food. When I looked into the heating system and found anti-freeze I wasn't shocked I was horrified and phoned ITR immediately. I think this was a cost cutting measure by SMC and was told that this was common to the majority of coaches SMC built; the reasoning that ITR told me was not a justification but the rationale that I believed SMC used in implementing this potentially lethal practice. Personally I will dump my system and put in RV non lethal coolant and that would be my recommendation to everyone regardless of their trust in the metal design.

As to the extra pump, I did a test on this explicitly at ITR's direction. I bypassed the controller by jumpering the shunt on the logic board labeled 'circ pump override' this is on both the V11 and V12 controller boards. Then looked into the hurricane expansion tank in the engine bay, I could see a strong stream of fluid pouring into the tank and that was using the single pump in the hurricane bay only. This was with the valves set to the winter position, it did not do the test with them set to the summer position; I had the engine heat switch on the control panel off. I am going by labeling on my coach by the original owners... but I don't know if this is just their terminology or there is a better term. The energy heat exchange for the engine coolant exchange will be the same as for the hot water heater system which does work. The hurricane coolant is very hot and there will be heat exchanged to the engine coolant.

As to the sensor, I looked and do not see a sensor wire for the engine heat system on the expansion tank and didn't look further. I will recheck with ITR in case I have remembered that information incorrectly. It also could be a common sensor to another point given the coolant is common to the entire loop and is maintained at a constant temperature.

I have to repair the relay board that the logic board drives, which runs the pump. When I do this I will also take apart the hurricane control panel in the cabin and find out exactly what the engine switch does and where it goes. My panel does not work in scan and stop mode, so I think the leak in the roof may have corroded a contact in there.

When I get this all sorted out I will put together a video of the findings and post it on this site, but I before posting I will ask ITR to review the video and validate the information; I am guessing that they will, given they have been extremely helpful to this point. I have found so many incompetent repairs and changes on my coach I no longer know what SMC designed and what some neophyte RV tech cobbled together. I think John is correct there is a way the system was designed and then the way the SMC put these systems together and they do not necessarily align. My system may be different from many/most others but this will be a starting point at least. If people will review the presentation for errors or differences with their coach, I can then add these as an addendum. There is a lot of misinformation on this system and it is a shame because it really is excellent. Some people have gone as far as giving up and replacing this zone system with a propane furnace and understandably because this is a complex system and no longer in production.
Robert and Bev Lewis
2000 Safari Continental, since 2017
3126B Cat, 330hp
MD3060 Allison
Bowen Island, BC

https://safaritoonces.org/

TDJohn
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:34 pm

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by TDJohn »

bdub wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:51 am
I'll make an attempt, but Facebookers use it because of the simplicity and familiarity. Really hard to get away from that.
I'll try to keep an eye out for important technical subjects with worthwhile results and copy them to correct topic in SafariFriends.

I completely agree with you re Safari and Hurricane. Did not know about Foretravels iteration of the Torsilastic suspension. Perhaps in another topic, you would expand on that?
Thanks
Bill,

I can agree on the familiarity, as for simplicity, this forum is as simple as it can get, even though I still prefer to receive all posts via email, like I did when on the old yahoo group. It motivated me to respond more quickly, among other things. The biggest issue with using FB as a technical forum, no matter how convenient it may seem to be, is it becomes like Ground Hog Day, where the same questions get asked over and over again. You understand that very well, the trick is trying to get others to understand that. Lol.

I will PM you on the torsional suspension topic. BTW, Brett Wolfe has a lot more knowledge then myself and would have more details on all the differences.
John
'95 Serengeti, Cummins C8.3-300
Allison 6spd.

wolfe10
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:12 pm

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by wolfe10 »

Yes, if you have questions on the Torsilastic suspension, please start a new thread.

I am very familiar with that suspension on both Safari and Foretravel.

I worked with the engineers at B.F. Goodrich Aerospace division who designed and built the suspension starting in 2000 as well as with Ralph Andrews who designed and built a number of aftermarket upgrades to the Safari installation of that suspension.
Brett and Dianne Wolfe
Ex: 2003 Alpine 38'. Ex 1997 Safari Sahara. Ex 1993 Foretravel U240
Moderator, FMCA Forums 2009-2020
Chairman, FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011- 2020
Moderator, http://www.dieselrvclub.org/ (FMCA chapter) 2002-

TDJohn
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:34 pm

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by TDJohn »

Safaritoonces wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:02 pm


As to the extra pump, I did a test on this explicitly at ITR's direction. I bypassed the controller by jumpering the shunt on the logic board labeled 'circ pump override' this is on both the V11 and V12 controller boards. Then looked into the hurricane expansion tank in the engine bay, I could see a strong stream of fluid pouring into the tank and that was using the single pump in the hurricane bay only. This was with the valves set to the winter position, it did not do the test with them set to the summer position; I had the engine heat switch on the control panel off. I am going by labeling on my coach by the original owners... but I don't know if this is just their terminology or there is a better term. The energy heat exchange for the engine coolant exchange will be the same as for the hot water heater system which does work. The hurricane coolant is very hot and there will be heat exchanged to the engine coolant.
Robert,

You can easily check this for yourself. It is highly likely that the engine heat switch does exactly what you did by jumping the logic board V11 and V12. As was mentioned among the FB conversation, that the engine heat switch turns the circulator pump on without having the main system on, meaning without needing to run the boiler. This allows for the circulation of the boiler system coolant/water to be heated by the engine heat exchanger and circulate it to heat hot water and the coach interior as needed.
That said, this will not effectively work in reverse, to heat up the engine block, unless you have a secondary circulator pump in the engine coolant circuit. The heated boiler water can heat the engine coolant exchanger, but with the engine off, there is nothing to circulate the coolant through the exchanger to heat the whole block. Yes, you get some movement through convection, but with a big block like that, I highly doubt that it would be effective. Think of it like the old Modine hydronic heaters some garages use to have. It was like a big box radiator, that boiler water would circulate through and the fan would blow air through the heated coils. If you don't turn the fan on, you might get some residual heat from convection and radiation, but it will be only a very small percentage compared to when the fan is running. It is no different with a heat exchanger, you need effective circulation in both loops of the heat exchanger. And like you mentioned in your presentation, you can easily buy an aftermarket circulation pump, and install it into the engine loop.

BTW, if both the engine heat exchanger and the hot water heater exchanger happen to develop a leak, you still can get the toxic engine coolant/antifreeze into the hot side of your domestic water. Nothing is bullet proof... :|
John
'95 Serengeti, Cummins C8.3-300
Allison 6spd.

bdub
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:48 pm

Re: Hurricane Thread from Facebook (Safari Motorhome Owners Group)

Post by bdub »

I will someday when I've got fewer irons in the fire.
Thanks
wolfe10 wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:34 pm
Yes, if you have questions on the Torsilastic suspension, please start a new thread.
Billy Massey
40' 1998 Serengeti, 3621b Cat 300hp
2015 Willys
Brownwood, in the Heart of Texas
Image

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