Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

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whalberstadt
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 9:33 pm

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by whalberstadt »

'Remember air has to be able to enter the tank when using the water. Even a significant altitude change could be a problem.

Bill Halberstadt
--- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, David Coy wrote:
>
> Why not run the overflow line over to the fill area and add a valve at the end,mark it open while filling and close when full.You have to open and close the fill valve,this eill remind you to open and close the vent valve especially when it comes squirting out when full! put a screw in the hole with some silicone on it and no more slosh and no more siphon. Dave in Hillsboro ohio 2000 Panther 425  (for sale) 937 763 0164
>
> --- On Sun, 11/20/11, stuplich@... wrote:
>
>
> From: stuplich@...
> Subject: [Safarifriends] Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers
> To: Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:03 AM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Jim
>
> Mine did not originally have the 1/2" pipe but it did have the 1/8" hole, and ALL the slosh ended up in the bay carpet.
>
> I thought perhaps a small check valve ,(like those used in home furnace/air cond), in that line might did the trick, (Air could come in but the water could not go out).
>
> That would however require an overflow , (like mine in the water bay), which would HAVE to be opened when filling to prevent pressurizing the tank, (one more thing to remember).
>
> What do you think?
>
> Mel
> '96 3530 Sahara
>
> --- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, "jimlyndabrooks" wrote:
> >
> > Mel, I bought mine used, 6 years ago, the brass fitting on the top left corner of the fresh water tank had a hole, about 1/8" drilled in the top of it.
> >
> > When I filled the tank, the water would come out both the 1/8" hole and out the 1/2" pipe that runs down the front bulkhead of the storage compartment to under it.
> >
> > Since the tank can get air thru the overflow pipe, I sealed the 1/8" hole, thus fixing my wet compartment problem when I filled the tank. Now all the overflow water is directed to under the coach.
> >
> > That same overflow pipe is where the water slosh comes out.
> >
> > Trying to figure out a stupid proof way to stop the water loss when stopping, but retain the overflow/venting as required by the tank.
> >
> > I blew the top out of a tank once, and was much younger then, so there is no way I am going to remember to do a valve thing 100% of the time. With a vertical loop filled with water, I am wondering if it would be enough to prevent slosh, but not over pressurize the tank when filled? Thinking the weight of the water would be enough to contain the force of the slosh.
> >
> > The U shaped piping would have a venting hole (1/8-3/16") both at the top of the loop and one in the bottom to allow the loop to drain and not hold water causing a air lock like a P-trap does. Yes you would loose water out of the loop drain holes, but that would be much less than the loss now.
> >
> > So, not knowing the psi the fresh water tank can take, not knowing for psi force of sloshed water, not knowing the weight of a column of water a couple feet tall in a 1/2" pipe, or the psi required to displace it, guess it is tinker time.
> >
> > Jim
> > '96 Sahara 3540
>
'
David Coy
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:46 am

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by David Coy »

'Adding a T in the line with a check valve will let it breath in while preventing water form coming out. Dave in Ohio
--- On Sun, 11/20/11, whalberstadt wrote:

From: whalberstadt
Subject: [Safarifriends] Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers
To: Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 5:45 PM

  Remember air has to be able to enter the tank when using the water. Even a significant altitude change could be a problem.

Bill Halberstadt

--- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, David Coy wrote:
>
> Why not run the overflow line over to the fill area and add a valve at the end,mark it open while filling and close when full.You have to open and close the fill valve,this eill remind you to open and close the vent valve especially when it comes squirting out when full! put a screw in the hole with some silicone on it and no more slosh and no more siphon. Dave in Hillsboro ohio 2000 Panther 425  (for sale) 937 763 0164
>
> --- On Sun, 11/20/11, stuplich@... wrote:
>
>
> From: stuplich@...
> Subject: [Safarifriends] Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers
> To: Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:03 AM
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Jim
>
> Mine did not originally have the 1/2" pipe but it did have the 1/8" hole, and ALL the slosh ended up in the bay carpet.
>
> I thought perhaps a small check valve ,(like those used in home furnace/air cond), in that line might did the trick, (Air could come in but the water could not go out).
>
> That would however require an overflow , (like mine in the water bay), which would HAVE to be opened when filling to prevent pressurizing the tank, (one more thing to remember).
>
> What do you think?
>
> Mel
> '96 3530 Sahara
>
> --- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, "jimlyndabrooks" wrote:
> >
> > Mel, I bought mine used, 6 years ago, the brass fitting on the top left corner of the fresh water tank had a hole, about 1/8" drilled in the top of it.
> >
> > When I filled the tank, the water would come out both the 1/8" hole and out the 1/2" pipe that runs down the front bulkhead of the storage compartment to under it.
> >
> > Since the tank can get air thru the overflow pipe, I sealed the 1/8" hole, thus fixing my wet compartment problem when I filled the tank. Now all the overflow water is directed to under the coach.
> >
> > That same overflow pipe is where the water slosh comes out.
> >
> > Trying to figure out a stupid proof way to stop the water loss when stopping, but retain the overflow/venting as required by the tank.
> >
> > I blew the top out of a tank once, and was much younger then, so there is no way I am going to remember to do a valve thing 100% of the time. With a vertical loop filled with water, I am wondering if it would be enough to prevent slosh, but not over pressurize the tank when filled? Thinking the weight of the water would be enough to contain the force of the slosh.
> >
> > The U shaped piping would have a venting hole (1/8-3/16") both at the top of the loop and one in the bottom to allow the loop to drain and not hold water causing a air lock like a P-trap does. Yes you would loose water out of the loop drain holes, but that would be much less than the loss now.
> >
> > So, not knowing the psi the fresh water tank can take, not knowing for psi force of sloshed water, not knowing the weight of a column of water a couple feet tall in a 1/2" pipe, or the psi required to displace it, guess it is tinker time.
> >
> > Jim
> > '96 Sahara 3540
>
'
daveg
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:55 am

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by daveg »

' Bill, you are absolutely right that plugging the air pressure equalization/overflow line with a valve is a very bad idea.  But David's idea has a lot merit.  Indeed, why not drill out the vent hole that breaks the suction and thread it for a 1/8" brass hose barb, then run the vent line over to a valve high on the water panel to avoid a deep column of water.   Then when a siphon forms, simply open the break siphon valve to let in air to break the siphon.  That way the 1/2" equalization/overflow line remains open at all time.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/Hose-Barb-6AFH3

Someone has obviously soldered or siliconed the hole shut on mine because I never get water in the bay and siphons form.  If I get a siphon and let it run, it siphons out about 1/3 of the tank.  The only solution I've found is to run around to the other side of my coach, pitch stuff out on the ground until I can get in and open the antifreeze suction line.  That will usually allow enough air to bubble in to break the siphon.  But it's embarrassing and it's a pain.  I really like the vent valve idea. 

- Dave Guyer
1999 30' Sahara, 300 Cat 3126B, Allison 6
On 11/20/2011 2:45 PM, whalberstadt wrote:  
Remember air has to be able to enter the tank when using the water. Even a significant altitude change could be a problem.

Bill Halberstadt

--- In Safarifriends%40yahoogroups.com, David Coy dcoyduck2@... wrote:
>
> Why not run the overflow line over to the fill area and add a valve at the end,mark it open while filling and close when full.You have to open and close the fill valve,this eill remind you to open and close the vent valve especially when it comes squirting out when full! put a screw in the hole with some silicone on it and no more slosh and no more siphon. Dave in Hillsboro ohio 2000 Panther 425  (for sale) 937 763 0164
>
> --- On Sun, 11/20/11, stuplich@... stuplich@... wrote:
>
>
> From: stuplich@... stuplich@...
> Subject: [Safarifriends] Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers
> To: Safarifriends%40yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 11:03 AM
>
> I thought perhaps a small check valve ,(like those used in home furnace/air cond), in that line might did the trick, (Air could come in but the water could not go out).
> That would however require an overflow , (like mine in the water bay), which would HAVE to be opened when filling to prevent pressurizing the tank, (one more thing to remember).
>
> What do you think?
>
> Mel
> '96 3530 Sahara
>
> --- In Safarifriends%40yahoogroups.com, "jimlyndabrooks" wrote:

> >
> > Trying to figure out a stupid proof way to stop the water loss when stopping, but retain the overflow/venting as required by the tank.
> > I blew the top out of a tank once, and was much younger then, so there is no way I am going to remember to do a valve thing 100% of the time.
> >
> > Jim
> > '96 Sahara 3540
>


'
stuplich@ymail.com
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:51 am

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by stuplich@ymail.com »

'David that is basically what I DID, with a SECOND overflow!
IMO, an air intake MUST be provided, I soldered the hole shut but retained the original overflow tube design and it allows air in, preventing an air lock.
Mel
--- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, David Coy wrote:
>
> Why not run the overflow line over to the fill area and add a valve at the end,mark it open while filling and close when full.You have to open and close the fill valve,this eill remind you to open and close the vent valve especially when it comes squirting out when full! put a screw in the hole with some silicone on it and no more slosh and no more siphon.
Dave in Hillsboro ohio 2000 Panther
'
Mel
'96 Sahara 3530, mine since '01
250 hp 3126 Cat, MD3060 Allison
Tom Vineski
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:10 am

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by Tom Vineski »

'Some years ago we had a leak in water tank and dropped it to discover that the top of tank had "imploded" due to constant flexing and collapsed creating a number of small cracks. Safari made a goodwill gesture of sending a new tank but it didn't fit. So we figured out a repair (plastic welded) and installed an air breather (1/4" flex hose) to the front overflow vent and ran it up over the tank and out the bottom. We also installed an extra vent tube at the rear of the tank and ran it also out the bottom of the along where the freshwater tank drain exits.  I then installed a ball valve in the front overflow pipe   so after we fill and water begins to flow out, I close the valve so that when we drive off  this prevents  the siphoning out the front, and we still have the second vent to prevent an "exploding" tank just in case. I use a small flag at the water fill connection to remind me that the valve is closed and to open it up before filling.

It's a bit M.Mouse but it's worked for us for years and is certainly a weak spot in Safari engineering but it's otherwise a great home. Not sure how other manufacturers have dealt with this issue.

Hope this helps and isn't too confusing. Happy trails, tom 
1997 Safari Ivory 3730


Still travelin' along in our SolarSafari
www.solarnomads.blogspot.com
480.993.4503
'
PETER GUZMAN
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by PETER GUZMAN »

'Mel, glad I was able to give you a tickle... lol...  Your lil snippet was also amusing, but a bit stinky.....lol
 Fulltimers-Currently traveling around USA-In Durham, NC..
Regards,
Peter G....
08 Cheetah/Safari'
whalberstadt
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2002 9:33 pm

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by whalberstadt »

'That's absolutely a good idea, Dave. In fact, there is a product to do exactly that, and it would be a good solution for anyone who can get access to the high point of their overflow tube (usually on top of the water tank). It's a piece of plumbing called an "anti-siphon loop" or "vented loop" and is basically a tee fitting (usually in the form of a 180 degree loop) with a check valve on one connection. You can see one version at:

Note that the images there show it laying on its side. For most of us, the 180 degree bend isn't a configuration that would fit, but you could create the same thing with any T and a small check valve.

If I could get to the top of my fresh water tank, I would put one on mine.

Bill Halberstadt
--- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, David Coy wrote:
>
> Adding a T in the line with a check valve will let it breath in while preventing water form coming out. Dave in Ohio
>
> --- On Sun, 11/20/11, whalberstadt wrote:
>
>
> From: whalberstadt
> Subject: [Safarifriends] Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers
> To: Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 5:45 PM
>
> Remember air has to be able to enter the tank when using the water. Even a significant altitude change could be a problem.
>
> Bill Halberstadt
>
> --- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, David Coy wrote:
> >
> > Why not run the overflow line over to the fill area and add a valve at the end,mark it open while filling and close when full.You have to open and close the fill valve,this eill remind you to open and close the vent valve especially when it comes squirting out when full! put a screw in the hole with some silicone on it and no more slosh and no more siphon. Dave in Hillsboro ohio 2000 Panther 425  (for sale) 937 763 0164
> >
'
PETER GUZMAN
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by PETER GUZMAN »

'Hi....OK  I have read  all the posts about this overflow... I still continue to have a bit of water in the area where my fresh water tank is.
What am I missing and where do I look to resolve the overflow of water? [img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2 ... b3Uh0w--~E[/img][img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2 ... b3Uh0w--~E[/img]
Thanks
 Fulltimers-Currently traveling around USA-In Durham, NC..
Regards,
Peter G....
08 Cheetah/Safari'
stuplich@ymail.com
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:51 am

Re: Water Tank Overflow Check Valve ? / vs Tank Siphon and Flex

Post by stuplich@ymail.com »

'IMO ANY "flexing" of a tank that is not designed to flex can NOT be a good thing.

This morning, I rummaged through my plumbing parts and found a small plastic check valve, (3/8 pipe / 3/8 hose barb), with a stainless internal ball.
Since I already have a second overflow back at the wet bay, (with a shut of valve), I will install that check valve in the front overflow pipe/hose, (to attempt stop the siphon and allow air in).

I will monitor it's effect, (and use the valve in the second overflow to release any vacuum or pressure that might cause flexing of the water tank), and see how it goes.

It's FREEZING here now, :-( so I will not be able to do "THE GREAT CHECK VALVE IN THE WATER TANK OVERFLOW TO STOP THE SIPHON AND LET IN AIR EXPERIMENT", :-) until after we go south (some time after Dec 12th}.

I will post the results.

Mel
'96 Sahara, 3530, garden tub/shower

--- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, Tom Vineski wrote:
>
> Some years ago we had a leak in water tank and dropped it to discover that the top of tank had "imploded" due to constant flexing and collapsed creating a number of small cracks.

> tom
> 1997 Safari Ivory 3730
'
Mel
'96 Sahara 3530, mine since '01
250 hp 3126 Cat, MD3060 Allison
stuplich@ymail.com
Posts: 1146
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:51 am

Re: Water Tank Overflow atten: you engineers

Post by stuplich@ymail.com »

'Peter

The hole in the brass fitting, (on the top of the water tank), has to be plugged to keep the slosh from wetting the bay carpet, (to plug the hole the tank must be dropped/removed).
However, an air inlet MUST be maintained so water can be drawn out by the pump, (to prevent the tank from inward flex and possible future cracking).

The following is only my OPIOION!:

I am not sure that anyone has found the best/correct/complete fix.

Just plugging the hole will stop the wet bay carpet problem, BUT a little inward flexing may occur, (caused by a siphon action which may occur when/if the tank is filled completely FULL), draining as much as 1/3 tank of water, out the overflow, onto the ground!

That is not a good thing but it is better than consistently WET carpet in the storage bay.

If you plug the hole your carpet will stay dry, (unless you find cracks in the tank).
If you are careful not to fully fill (or overfill), the fresh water tank you should not have no problems.

Mel
,96 Sahara

Mel
'96 Sahara

--- In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, PETER GUZMAN wrote:
>
> Hi....OK  I have read  all the posts about this overflow... I still continue to have a bit of water in the area where my fresh water tank is.
>
> What am I missing and where do I look to resolve the overflow of water?
>
> Thanks
>
>  
> Fulltimers-Currently traveling around USA-In Durham, NC..
> Regards,
> Peter G....
> 08 Cheetah/Safari
>
'
Mel
'96 Sahara 3530, mine since '01
250 hp 3126 Cat, MD3060 Allison
Locked