Re: 2000 safari sahara

[Bill Edwards]

' Mel the system is  hydronic boiler only (no furnace) and in my coach only one loop.  hot water heater electric and hydronic. Boiler heats up very fast and even faster if in the summer the heating coach loop closed off. If on shore then use electric elements in the water heater to heat system. The 1500 watt elements not enough to heat the house in the winter so supplemental is frequently used. System is not in the floor but little hot ware finned copper coils and fans
Bill Edwards1999 Panther

On Thursday, May 16, 2019, 10:24:50 AM MDT, stuplich@... [Safarifriends] wrote:

 
Tom MastersonI'm confused.I was under the impression that the hydronic units used in RVs where a "combination furnace and water heater"... designed to supply BOTH hot water and cabin heat when being run on shore  power electric........Am I wrong?
Do you have a separate water heater?.....(one not associated with the Hurricane system in your coach)?If not why do you use electric space heaters for cabin heat.... rather than the "endless" Hurricane heated water?

Mel'96 Safari
---In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Mel,
I have to agree for the most part. I think the two big attractions for hydronic heat are "endless" hot water, and the option some coach builders chose which is to add heated floors.
I must admit most of the time we are on shore power we don't use the system at all. We run electric space heaters and the AC element in the hot water tank provides hot water - Surprisingly enough hot water for two decent showers in a row.
On general RV forums I read about way more problems with hydronic systems than propane furnaces or heat pumps. I wonder if Safari chose the Hurricane as an option in part because they were sourcing a lot of their other items such as sinks, stoves, and ice makers from the marine industry. It's an easy choice to do the same with a marine hydronic furnace and hot water tank.
One thing I didn't mention regarding maintenance, is the wet side of the system. Just like your coach's engine cooling system, the Hurricane hot water loop contains antifreeze, although of a different type. You must use non toxic antifreeze due to the heat exchanger in the hot water tank. If it were to spring a leak, it would contaminate the domestic hot water supply and you certainly don't want to be drinking automotive style coolant mixture. There's about 100 feet of hoses, plastic tubing, and fittings that must be checked on a periodic basis for leaks and their location makes for awkward and difficult replacement. There's an expansion tank with a radiator type cap, and overflow tank in the engine compartment that must be checked just like checking the engine coolant. 
I've had a very small drip in a tee fitting for a while and I've put off replacing the fitting because of the need to drain and refill the system. It's on my to-do list for this summer because it's foolish to allow a tiny drip to become a big leak especially since it's in my main storage compartment.
One positive thing I have to say about the Hurricane/Oasis system compared is that, compared to the Aqua Hot system, the Hurricane system and the way Safari chose to install it, seems to be much more user and repair friendly than the Aqua Hot. I read a lot about how hard it is to even access the internals of the Aqua Hot systems. I can have the Hurricane cover off to access the air compressor, fuel pump, combustion blower, and burner chamber in 10 minutes. Fuel and air filters are standard automotive type. The above listed parts can be easily replaced in the field by anyone with a few regular tools and basic mechanical skills.
Systems like this pretty much follow a mechanical and technical laws of the universe. The more complex the system, the more points of possible failure.
I didn't specifically go looking for a coach with hydronic heat. We just bought one that happened to have it. I must add that the system didn't work properly when we tested it on the dealer's lot. It was a consignment rig and we said we'd purchase it only if the system was working properly. We live a few miles  from the Washington coast yet it took a while to get a marine technician to the dealer to repair the unit. He needed to come back a second time to get it running right and it cost the seller over $2000 for the repair. 
Tom Masterson1998 Serengeti 3706Cat 300hp 3126Allison 3060 '

[astrnmrtom]

'Yes, that's my understanding too. My rig has 5 heat register/fans total. One in the front in the lower dash, one under the refrigerator in the kitchen, one under the bathroom sink cabinet, and one in the bedroom under the closet. These are divided into three zones each controlled from a separate thermostat. The living room/kitchen zone and the bathroom/bedroom zone. The fifth register is in the main storage compartment and is run off it's own thermostat and is the third zone. So far I've never had the need to activate the register in the storage bay. This compartment houses the boiler and quite a bit of hose and tubing that shed enough heat to keep the area from freezing. Of course there's the heat exchanger in the hot water tank and the one in the engine.
One of the modifications I did to my system was to insulate as much of the hoses and tubing as possible. Not long after getting my Safari I was rolling around underneath doing an inspection and chassis lube and noticed the front register hoses were exposed to the open air between where they left the storage area to where they entered the cabin. I didn't like the idea of heat radiating out into the open air so I wrapped the hoses in pipe wrap. Did the same with hoses that were exposed in the engine compartment. I did insulate as much of the hoses in the storage bay to help keep loop temperatures as high as possible all the way to the registers. Don't know how much it helped, but the insulation and zip ties were cheap.
I believe some newer higher end coaches use hydronic heat in the floor. I'm not aware of any of the Safari units with that feature.
Tom Masterson1998 Serengeti 3706300hp Cat 3126Allison 3060   '

[astrnmrtom]

'I just saw Taylor's post about his Hurricane having the electric heat option. Mine does not. The only electric element in mine is in the hot water heater.'

[cliff walter]

'Attachments : Your hot water tank should be right above your hurracine not sure aboyt the 98 but most 2000 had it that way   Sent from Mail for Windows 10   From: Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com on behalf of W Taylor Hudson fpengr@... [Safarifriends]
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:04:35 PM
To: Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Safarifriends] Hydronic heat and hot water? (was: 2000 safari sahara)    
Mel, Just addressing the Hurricane System that Safari uses, their primary heat source is a diesel fuel burner that fires at 50K BTU/HR, since most non condensing oil furnaces and boilers have operating efficiencies around 80%, I expect we get 40K BTU/HR of 180 degree coolant out the boiler when it fires continuously. At times of light heating loads when you are at a site with a standard 50 amp service, there are a pair of separately controlled 120 volt, 1,500 watt immersion heaters in the boiler tank that can provide supplemental heat to the system during times of low demands.  Note each immersion heater will provide 5,115 BTU/HR of heat, both operating in tandem would produce 10,230 BTU/HR, or about 1/4 the heat output available from the boiler. In my coach the two circuits are in a separate auxiliary two slot breaker panel in the same basement compartment as the Magnum Inverter/Charger, the Onan transfer switch, and the coach’s campsite power cord.  Without taking the cover off the 50 amp relay (“transfer switch”) enclosure, I cannot tell you if the generator will power them or not.  v/r,
Taylor Hudson ‘98 Serengeti (model 4160), CAT 3126 [img]cid:16ac3bf69f236839f631[/img]




On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:24 PM stuplich@... [Safarifriends] wrote:

 
Tom Masterson I'm confused. I was under the impression that the hydronic units used in RVs where a "combination furnace and water heater"... designed to supply BOTH hot water and cabin heat when being run on shore  power electric....... .Am I wrong?
Do you have a separate water heater?.....(one not associated with the Hurricane system in your coach)? If not why do you use electric space heaters for cabin heat.... rather than the "endless" Hurricane heated water?

Mel '96 Safari
---In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Mel,
I have to agree for the most part. I think the two big attractions for hydronic heat are "endless" hot water, and the option some coach builders chose which is to add heated floors.
I must admit most of the time we are on shore power we don't use the system at all. We run electric space heaters and the AC element in the hot water tank provides hot water - Surprisingly enough hot water for two decent showers in a row.
On general RV forums I read about way more problems with hydronic systems than propane furnaces or heat pumps. I wonder if Safari chose the Hurricane as an option in part because they were sourcing a lot of their other items such as sinks, stoves, and ice makers from the marine industry. It's an easy choice to do the same with a marine hydronic furnace and hot water tank.
One thing I didn't mention regarding maintenance, is the wet side of the system. Just like your coach's engine cooling system, the Hurricane hot water loop contains antifreeze, although of a different type. You must use non toxic antifreeze due to the heat exchanger in the hot water tank. If it were to spring a leak, it would contaminate the domestic hot water supply and you certainly don't want to be drinking automotive style coolant mixture. There's about 100 feet of hoses, plastic tubing, and fittings that must be checked on a periodic basis for leaks and their location makes for awkward and difficult replacement. There's an expansion tank with a radiator type cap, and overflow tank in the engine compartment that must be checked just like checking the engine coolant. 
I've had a very small drip in a tee fitting for a while and I've put off replacing the fitting because of the need to drain and refill the system. It's on my to-do list for this summer because it's foolish to allow a tiny drip to become a big leak especially since it's in my main storage compartment.
One positive thing I have to say about the Hurricane/Oasis system compared is that, compared to the Aqua Hot system, the Hurricane system and the way Safari chose to install it, seems to be much more user and repair friendly than the Aqua Hot. I read a lot about how hard it is to even access the internals of the Aqua Hot systems. I can have the Hurricane cover off to access the air compressor, fuel pump, combustion blower, and burner chamber in 10 minutes. Fuel and air filters are standard automotive type. The above listed parts can be easily replaced in the field by anyone with a few regular tools and basic mechanical skills.
Systems like this pretty much follow a mechanical and technical laws of the universe. The more complex the system, the more points of possible failure.
I didn't specifically go looking for a coach with hydronic heat. We just bought one that happened to have it. I must add that the system didn't work properly when we tested it on the dealer's lot. It was a consignment rig and we said we'd purchase it only if the system was working properly. We live a few miles  from the Washington coast yet it took a while to get a marine technician to the dealer to repair the unit. He needed to come back a second time to get it running right and it cost the seller over $2000 for the repair. 
Tom Masterson 1998 Serengeti 3706 Cat 300hp 3126 Allison 3060

'

[cliff walter]

'Attachments : Should look like this[img]cid:image003.jpg@01D50C3B.A48FF800[/img]   Sent from Mail for Windows 10   From: Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com on behalf of W Taylor Hudson fpengr@... [Safarifriends]
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:04:35 PM
To: Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Safarifriends] Hydronic heat and hot water? (was: 2000 safari sahara)    
Mel, Just addressing the Hurricane System that Safari uses, their primary heat source is a diesel fuel burner that fires at 50K BTU/HR, since most non condensing oil furnaces and boilers have operating efficiencies around 80%, I expect we get 40K BTU/HR of 180 degree coolant out the boiler when it fires continuously. At times of light heating loads when you are at a site with a standard 50 amp service, there are a pair of separately controlled 120 volt, 1,500 watt immersion heaters in the boiler tank that can provide supplemental heat to the system during times of low demands.  Note each immersion heater will provide 5,115 BTU/HR of heat, both operating in tandem would produce 10,230 BTU/HR, or about 1/4 the heat output available from the boiler. In my coach the two circuits are in a separate auxiliary two slot breaker panel in the same basement compartment as the Magnum Inverter/Charger, the Onan transfer switch, and the coach’s campsite power cord.  Without taking the cover off the 50 amp relay (“transfer switch”) enclosure, I cannot tell you if the generator will power them or not.  v/r,
Taylor Hudson ‘98 Serengeti (model 4160), CAT 3126 [img]cid:16ac3bf69f236839f631[/img]




On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:24 PM stuplich@... [Safarifriends] wrote:

 
Tom Masterson I'm confused. I was under the impression that the hydronic units used in RVs where a "combination furnace and water heater"... designed to supply BOTH hot water and cabin heat when being run on shore  power electric....... .Am I wrong?
Do you have a separate water heater?.....(one not associated with the Hurricane system in your coach)? If not why do you use electric space heaters for cabin heat.... rather than the "endless" Hurricane heated water?

Mel '96 Safari
---In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

Mel,
I have to agree for the most part. I think the two big attractions for hydronic heat are "endless" hot water, and the option some coach builders chose which is to add heated floors.
I must admit most of the time we are on shore power we don't use the system at all. We run electric space heaters and the AC element in the hot water tank provides hot water - Surprisingly enough hot water for two decent showers in a row.
On general RV forums I read about way more problems with hydronic systems than propane furnaces or heat pumps. I wonder if Safari chose the Hurricane as an option in part because they were sourcing a lot of their other items such as sinks, stoves, and ice makers from the marine industry. It's an easy choice to do the same with a marine hydronic furnace and hot water tank.
One thing I didn't mention regarding maintenance, is the wet side of the system. Just like your coach's engine cooling system, the Hurricane hot water loop contains antifreeze, although of a different type. You must use non toxic antifreeze due to the heat exchanger in the hot water tank. If it were to spring a leak, it would contaminate the domestic hot water supply and you certainly don't want to be drinking automotive style coolant mixture. There's about 100 feet of hoses, plastic tubing, and fittings that must be checked on a periodic basis for leaks and their location makes for awkward and difficult replacement. There's an expansion tank with a radiator type cap, and overflow tank in the engine compartment that must be checked just like checking the engine coolant. 
I've had a very small drip in a tee fitting for a while and I've put off replacing the fitting because of the need to drain and refill the system. It's on my to-do list for this summer because it's foolish to allow a tiny drip to become a big leak especially since it's in my main storage compartment.
One positive thing I have to say about the Hurricane/Oasis system compared is that, compared to the Aqua Hot system, the Hurricane system and the way Safari chose to install it, seems to be much more user and repair friendly than the Aqua Hot. I read a lot about how hard it is to even access the internals of the Aqua Hot systems. I can have the Hurricane cover off to access the air compressor, fuel pump, combustion blower, and burner chamber in 10 minutes. Fuel and air filters are standard automotive type. The above listed parts can be easily replaced in the field by anyone with a few regular tools and basic mechanical skills.
Systems like this pretty much follow a mechanical and technical laws of the universe. The more complex the system, the more points of possible failure.
I didn't specifically go looking for a coach with hydronic heat. We just bought one that happened to have it. I must add that the system didn't work properly when we tested it on the dealer's lot. It was a consignment rig and we said we'd purchase it only if the system was working properly. We live a few miles  from the Washington coast yet it took a while to get a marine technician to the dealer to repair the unit. He needed to come back a second time to get it running right and it cost the seller over $2000 for the repair. 
Tom Masterson 1998 Serengeti 3706 Cat 300hp 3126 Allison 3060

'

[mel96safari]

'astrnmrtom@...Apparently not all Hurricane hydronic heaters used in motorhomes have an electric option which  provides heat when on shore power.... even though the the hot water can be heated electrically.

That seems odd, strange and unreasonable.
Mel'96 Sahara, (Suberban SF-42 propane furnace)


---In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

I just saw Taylor's post about his Hurricane having the electric heat option.
Mine does not.
The only electric element in mine is in the hot water heater.'

[Dale Maggio]

'But it is true, Mel. Mine will heat water but not air on Elect.
-=Dale=-

On Friday, May 17, 2019, 03:27:26 PM UTC, stuplich@... [Safarifriends] wrote:

 
astrnmrtom@...Apparently not all Hurricane hydronic heaters used in motorhomes have an electric option which  provides heat when on shore power.... even though the the hot water can be heated electrically.

That seems odd, strange and unreasonable.
Mel'96 Sahara, (Suberban SF-42 propane furnace)


---In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

I just saw Taylor's post about his Hurricane having the electric heat option.
Mine does not.
The only electric element in mine is in the hot water heater. '

[W Taylor Hudson]

'I have heard some installations may use a conventional RV water heater, in which case their may be an electric element there.  I do not know if SMC ever did it that way.  Mine has no RV type water, that compartment space in the corner of the kitchen cabinet is empty.  The Hurricane heat exchanger in my unit (for the domestic water heater) functions similar to a tankless on-demand heater. v/r,
Taylor Hudson‘98 Serengeti (model 4060), CAT 3126

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 11:27 AM stuplich@... [Safarifriends] wrote:
 
astrnmrtom@...Apparently not all Hurricane hydronic heaters used in motorhomes have an electric option which  provides heat when on shore power.... even though the the hot water can be heated electrically.

That seems odd, strange and unreasonable.
Mel'96 Sahara, (Suberban SF-42 propane furnace)


---In Safarifriends@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

I just saw Taylor's post about his Hurricane having the electric heat option.
Mine does not.
The only electric element in mine is in the hot water heater.

'

[Robert Lewis]

' Tom
Thank you for the detailed explanation. I saved this for future reference.
Robert and Bev Lewis2000 Continental3126B Cat, 330hpMD3060 Allisonhttps://safaritoonces.org

On May 14, 2019 4:53:17 PM "astrnmrtom@... [Safarifriends]" wrote:  
I tried posting this earlier but it never showed up so I'll try again.
I'll add my 2 cents regarding the Hurricane/Oasis hydronic heating system. I'm going on my third year using one in our '98 Serengeti. I love the Hurricane system but I have a background operating, troubleshooting, periodic maintenance, and doing minor repairs on a cranky old facility diesel boiler hydronic heating system. I can perform yearly maintenance on the Hurricane in a hour instead of the 40 or so hours it took to service that old Cleaver Brooks boiler.
Yes, they are a much more complex system than the typical separate propane furnace and hot water heater system. If you aren't mechanical, struggle programming the clock on your microwave and don't live on a coast where there's marine service centers, it will be a frustrating experience owning one. If you are a person who changes their own oil, sparkplugs, belts and brakes on you car, and are ok ordering parts via the phone you'll be fine.
The system was designed for marine use, and this is where you'll find the majority of dealers who can get parts and have technicians who understand the systems. Some RV repair places may work on them, but it will be much more rare, although if an RV service center works on Aquahot Hydronic systems, they should be able to work on a Hurricane/Oasis system.
I've tried to be as thorough as possible in my description but may have missed some details. Hope this helps offer an understanding on how these systems work.
************************************************************************************************************************
HEAT: Running one on a day to day basis is more complicated. You don't just flip a switch on a thermostat and adjust the thermostat to get heat. You must first turn the system on with a master switch. This starts the boiler heating and the circulating pumps running. From that point on, as long as the master switch is on, the system will circulate water/coolant in a sealed, closed hot water loop, cycling the boiler off and on to maintain a loop temperature of 180 degrees.
HEAT ZONES - my coach has two, bedroom/bathroom, and livingroom/kitchen - each zone a fan HI/OFF/LOW speed control switch, and it's own zone thermostat. When the fan speed switch is set to either HI or LOW, the wall thermostat will turn the fans off and on to maintain room temperature when set to "Furnace". If the fan speed control switches are in the OFF position, the fans won't come on even if the thermostat tells them to.
HOT WATER: When the boiler is running, a heat exchanger in the hot water tank will heat the hot water via the boiler. This is regardless of whether you are using the system to heat the interior of the coach or not. Again, the boiler will cycle off and on to maintain loop temp and this will happen if you are using a lot of hot water - this is the "Endless Hot Water" feature of the system. Boiler master switch must be on for this feature to work, but the fan speed switches and wall thermostats do not. The hot water tank will also have a 110 volt electric element activated by a switch located somewhere in the coach, either in the basement, kitchen or in my unit, in the hot water tank compartment. If you aren't using a lot of hot water, and are plugged into shore power, there's no need ot run the boiler but the "Endless Hot Water" feature won't work on electric.
ENGINE HEAT: There's a heat exchanger in the engine that will heat the hot water loop while driving. Some units require that a circulating pump switch marked "ENGINE HEAT" be on for the circulating pumps to run, but I've found mine doesn't. This means you can use the furnace to provide heat to the whole coach while you drive and you'll have hot water when you arrive at your site. To use ENGINE HEAT, you DO NOT need to turn on the boiler using the master switch.
ENGINE PRE-HEAT: The heat exchanger in the engine works in reverse too. When the boiler is on, the hot water loop includes the engine so you can use the boiler to preheat the engine in very cold weather.
SUMMER/WINTER VALVES:  In the boiler compartment there are two quarter turn valves on the hot water loop hoses. With both valves in one position, water circulates through all the zones and when they are both in the other position, the hot water loop only goes to the hot water tank.
MAINTENANCE: Here's where having basic car maintenance experience really helps. Regular system maintenance consists of changing air and fuel filters, and removing the boiler burner assembly to clean the boiler chamber, fuel nozzle and clean or replace tiny sintered bronze fuel nozzle filter and nozzle o-ring assembly. It's recommended that you carry a spare nozzle, nozzle filter, and hot surface igniter in your rig. This will take care of 95% of system failures. NOTE: One source of repeated air in the fuel line is pinholes in the fuel line often near the fuel tank.
TROUBLESHOOTING: The #1 causes of system failure is: Air in the fuel line, a burn out hot surface igniter, and a dirty fuel nozzle. https://itrheat.com/hurricane-heating-systems/ is the best resource for maintenance and troubleshooting. They have videos showing how to maintain the system and will help troubleshoot over the phone. Being a primarily marine system, they are used to helping people get their systems running while out at sea.
FUEL CONSUMPTION: The boiler will use around 1/4 gallon of diesel per hour of operation. That's a quarter gallon of fuel per hour that the BURNER IS RUNNING, and the burner cycles off and on during use. This makes the system very efficient. One other advantage is diesel doesn't lose BTU capacity in cold weather and you are using fuel out of your main tank. The system can draw down the tank to 1/4 full so you have the potential for having up to 75 gallons of heating fuel on board. If the system is operating properly, the exhaust is virtually odorless and smoke free. Exhaust pipe does get VERY hot. I use a Gen-turi when camped in a campground even though the exhaust isn't any worse than a propane furnace. 
NEGATIVES: Complex to run and service compared to a regular propane furnace. Parts are expensive and professional service availability can be difficult to find. Main control boards for older systems are no longer made. System replacement costs are high. Much higher maintenance required than a standard propane furnace. If the hot water tank fails, you can't just pick one up at your local RV parts and service center, same with system parts. The system noise is different than propane furnace and might be more annoying to some. My boiler is located right under the kitchen and makes a low rumble noise when the burner is firing. The rumble can be heard outside and can be louder than a propane furnace and exhaust noise is similar to a propane hot water heater but cycles more often when using coach heat. Each heat register has it's own fan and they can be noisier especially on HIGH fan speed. 
Tom1998 Serengeti 3706300hp Cat Allison 3060

'

[astrnmrtom]

'I learned a lot myself from other who posted in this thread. There's very little information on the Hurricane systems and it appears that there are differences in years and possibly options. The way others describe their systems they seem to be different than mine in some aspects. At least in general, my explanation should describe the system to someone who has never encountered on before.
Thanks everyone for adding to the limited information.
Tom Masterson1998 Serengeti 3706300 Cat 3126Allison 3060'