Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Pretty much everything on the bottom side of the coach: Steering, wheels, tires, brakes, suspension
Leigh.Calnek
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:48 am

Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by Leigh.Calnek »

Like others, I am grappling with the issues of ride and steering quality on my 97 Continental. I suspect my units ride height has never been assessed as it looks like all the shims are still in place. Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of Ralph Andrews directions for assessing and adjusting ride height. I would like to work on this problem and am looking for whatever assistance I can find. I have installed the 6 air bags from Hendersons Line Up and have the shocks as specified in other articles here. I have been considering the Safe-T Plus steering mod, but the more I read I realize I need to make certain I have the ride height correct. Any help would be appreciated.

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Leigh & Georgette Calnek
'97 Safari Continental/Sofa Slide
3126B Cat, MD3060 Allison
Toad: 2006 Chev Colorado 4X4
TDJohn
Posts: 552
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:34 pm

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by TDJohn »

Leigh,

Did you have your coach weighed and adjust tire pressure according to the weight you are carrying?
If not, that should be the first thing to do. Overinflated tires will give you a very harsh ride and the coach will wander all over the road. Having more weight in the front also helps. If you kingpins are worn, that will result in steering issues too.

You measure ride height from the bottom of the riveted belt line, to the center of the wheel hub. The proper measurement is 25" +/- 1/4". The coach needs to be on level ground and fully loaded as you would be in travel mode, with airbags completely deflated. There should be instructions buried in the Legacy folder.

If you did have the coach weighed, please post the axle weights and the tire pressures you are running, and tire brand, model, and tire size.
Also, how much pressure are you running in your airbags?

Just to double check, please provide the shock part numbers that you installed on your coach, and what you set the dampening at.
John
'95 Serengeti, Cummins C8.3-300
Allison 6spd.
wolfe10
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:12 pm

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by wolfe10 »

And, to raise ride height at a wheel position, REMOVE shims from in front of and behind that wheel position.

Each shim is 1/4", so removing one shim raises the ride height 1/4". Number of shims in front of and behind a wheel position must be the same. Number of shims at different wheel positions do not need to be the same.

Also, check for wear of the shackles (the vertical connectors). Make sure the metal part is centered in the rubber/rubber not wallowed out.

Have adjusted ride height many many times with just hand tools and 1/2" torque wrench. No special tools needed.
Brett and Dianne Wolfe
Ex: 2003 Alpine 38'. Ex 1997 Safari Sahara. Ex 1993 Foretravel U240
Moderator, FMCA Forums 2009-2020
Chairman, FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011- 2020
Moderator, http://www.dieselrvclub.org/ (FMCA chapter) 2002-
Leigh.Calnek
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:48 am

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by Leigh.Calnek »

I have just replaced the front shocks with Koni 88-1641SP3. (They were Koni 88-1490SP2 adjusted to full dampen). I just did that this last week and have not had it on the road since then. I am expecting better performance at the front now as the new shocks were much tighter. It took two of us pulling very hard to fully extend them after we had adjusted.

The rear shocks are 88-1458SP2 and I believe they are at full damp although I may have to remove them to be certain. I had them installed at a service center and can't be certain. Anyone who knows the difference between the SP1s and SP2s on those Koni shocks could please share their thoughts.

Last summer I had the rig in at a frame and steering shop to look for reasons for the poor steering. The gave the rig a clean bill of health in terms of the mechanical. Also, I have seen no unusual wear on either the old tires nor the new ones.

The last time I weighed i had front axle at 9303 lbs and rear axle at 16248 lbs. I suspect at that time I had full water, fuel and propane.

I am currently running my air bags at 30 lbs at all 4.

My tires are new Michelins and are at 90 lbs. When I had them installed last fall I asked for a low but safe tire pressure hoping that that may soften the ride.

With the information now shared by the two responses, I will undertake doing the measuring. Also, I do expect the ride to be improved with the new shocks on the front, and plan to take the rig for a short test drive perhaps as early as next week. I am currently in BC near Chilliwack and will be returning home to Saskatchewan in later April, approx 1300 miles.

I should also add that I am looking at installing the Safe-T Plus steering assist. I would appreciate hearing any thoughts from anyone having any experience with this on a BFG Velvet Ride.
TDJohn
Posts: 552
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:34 pm

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by TDJohn »

Leigh,

Please describe your steering/handling issues and ride comfort issues that you are experiencing?

What is the tire size on your coach?

As for the shocks, assuming you set your new front shocks to maximum dampening, you will feel a very noticeable improvement in sway control and elimination of porpoising (if that was one of your issues). As for the rear shocks, the ones ending in SP1 are smoother compared to the SP2, unfortunately you bought the harsher ones. Please note that in all my posts for the two years I have been recommending/suggesting the SP1, because it is a smoother shock.

One of my friends had a Safari Zanzibar with the VelvetRide suspension, that he installed the supplemental airbags on, and he ran very low pressures in the airbags. I can't remember, I think it was around 15 psi, I will call him and find out. He said that since it is supplemental, not primary, you run low pressure to give a bit of support and smooth out the ride.

As for Safe-T-Plus, it is a good and effective system, but you have to rule out any possibility of mechanical issue causing your steering issue, as this product can mask an underlying problem that may be serious.

Bellow I will post some notes that a fellow Safari owner (also from Canada) wrote to me regarding the steering issues he had, that were very evasive. I'm not saying that this is your issue, but it is something to check into just in case.


Correspondence Note:

Back in May I took the rig to the shop where I had the king pins and bushings replaced several years ago. It is a small shop in Kent, WA that specializes in truck and heavy equipment suspension and steering. Gitts Springs if you want to look it up, they have a website. Les Schwab had recommended them when I tried to have them do the alignment and they found the king pins were two worn to do an alignment. Unfortunately replacing the king pins and alignment did not solve the steering problems at that time. This time I explained the problem, they drove the rig, recognized the problem, and went to work.

They had the rig for a week trying to solve the problem. I was getting a little concerned about what the bill was going to be with all the trouble-shooting work that seemed to be going nowhere, but I as assured that their shop policy was that they don't charge for trouble-shooting, only for the actual repair once they figure out what the problem is.

The did increase the caster, but that wasn't really solving the problem. What they did finally find was that the steering box itself was binding, preventing the steering from returning to center. But, it was only binding when the engine was running and there was hydraulic pressure on the system. With the engine off, as it normally is when suspension and steering work is done, there is no binding. Likely this is why no one was finding the problem when I had it in other shops. Anyway the steering box was removed and sent for overhaul. The overhaul shop said the seals were all swollen up and soft, likely from exposure to stop-leak fluid of some type in the past. So when hydraulic pressure was on them, it forced them out of position and they would bind up the steering.

Now, with the steering box overhauled, the rig drives great! Steering wheel returns to center when released in a turn and I have good "feel" of the road. It no longer seems to dart off to the left or right without warning, don't find myself constantly correcting to steering it back into the lane.


2nd followup note from my questions:

Yes, they did flush the hydraulic system and refill it with new fluid. This was a requirement from the steering box rebuilder for their warranty. We also discussed rebuild of both the pump and the brake master cylinder because of possible damage from the contaminated fluid, but finally decided it wasn't necessary. The contamination happened something before 2010, when I acquired the coach. So if the pump and master cylinder haven't had a problem in seven or move years, they probably aren't going to.

As for costs, I was billed as follows:

$273 for the alignment

$588 for rebuild of the steering box rebuild

$573 labor for R&R of steering box, flushing the hydraulic system, and replacing front brake pads.

Their labor rate is $95/hr. They worked on it for a week trying to figure out what the problem was, but like I said before their policy is that don't charge for troubleshooting time. They consider themselves experts on suspension and steering, so their customers shouldn't have to pay them to figure out a problem.

Caster on the alignment was increased to 5-7/8 degrees left side, and 6-1/2 degrees right side. I asked how you can get different caster angles on each side with a solid axle, and they said that within a small amount the axle will twist some with different shims when weight is on it. I think they started with the alignment and increasing caster to get the steering to return to center, but didn't get the results they needed causing them to check further for binding in the system. That is when they finally found the problem with the steering box. So, still not really sure if I actually needed the increased caster or not, but it drives nicely now. Narrow, twisting, Hwy 101 along the Oregon coast was not problem. South of Seaside, there was a 30 mile detour off 101 on an even narrower, twister highway, with semi trucks coming from the opposite direction, that was also no problem.


I would like to add my own note to the rarity of the shop that did the work and only charging him for the work and not the lengthy, time consuming diagnostics. That is sadly unheard of these days.
John
'95 Serengeti, Cummins C8.3-300
Allison 6spd.
Leigh.Calnek
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:48 am

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by Leigh.Calnek »

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. It is proving, in my mind, very helpful. From what I have read so far, I am planning on the following steps (hopefully before I leave Chilliwack BC in the 3rd week of April.)
1. Replace the rear shocks with koni 88-1458SP1. (currently koni 88-1458SP2)
2. Assess the ride height to see how far from optimum I am. I have found a copy of Ralph Andrew's paper on measuring ride height. I have not found anything in my box of documentation for this coach that talks about setting ride height. I understand now how to proceed and will get on with that ASAP. What is not clear to me is the process of removing or adding shims. Looking at my velvet ride axles, there are 10 shims at each wheel/axle position. I suspect that it has never been changed. Any advice on a procedure for changing the shims (remove or add) would be appreciated. I assume I have to jack something up to release tension on the shims after the bolts are loosened...but not certain as to what or where. So any comments will be welcome.

So now I have some work to do. Once I have the ride height info, I will post it for thoughts.

Thanks again all.
wolfe10
Posts: 222
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:12 pm

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by wolfe10 »

OK, let's say you need to raise a wheel position 1.5". Each shim is 1/4" thick, so you need to remove 6 shims from in front of and behind that wheel position.

I have found it helpful to start by wire brushing and spraying penetrating oil on the 4 tall boy nuts (longer, so more threads than standard nut) below the plates that go through the shim stack.

Take roughly half the weight off that wheel position with the jacks-- also gives you a little more working room.

Next, loosen all for nuts about 1/2". Do NOT remove any of them.

Take a screwdriver and knock out 6 shims-- they are slotted, so easy to do.

Start retorquing the 4 nuts.

Only "got ya" is if the threads are buggered and you can tighten them as you need to. Worse case is to buy a new grade 8 fine thread bolt to replace the bad one(s). Outer ones slip right up/out. Inner ones require cutting off the bolt head, as there is not clearance to remove them. On the inners, if replacing, install the bolt from the bottom/upside down. Same torque.

If you have questions, feel free to Private Message me.
Brett and Dianne Wolfe
Ex: 2003 Alpine 38'. Ex 1997 Safari Sahara. Ex 1993 Foretravel U240
Moderator, FMCA Forums 2009-2020
Chairman, FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011- 2020
Moderator, http://www.dieselrvclub.org/ (FMCA chapter) 2002-
ChrisTrina
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:51 pm

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by ChrisTrina »

I have a new to us 99 Zanzibar is the measurements for the height the same or should i look somewhere for Model Specific? 22.5 wheels
chuckster
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:53 pm

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by chuckster »

wolfe10 wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 1:44 pm OK, let's say you need to raise a wheel position 1.5". Each shim is 1/4" thick, so you need to remove 6 shims from in front of and behind that wheel position.

I have found it helpful to start by wire brushing and spraying penetrating oil on the 4 tall boy nuts (longer, so more threads than standard nut) below the plates that go through the shim stack.

Take roughly half the weight off that wheel position with the jacks-- also gives you a little more working room.

Next, loosen all for nuts about 1/2". Do NOT remove any of them.

Take a screwdriver and knock out 6 shims-- they are slotted, so easy to do.

Start retorquing the 4 nuts.

Only "got ya" is if the threads are buggered and you can tighten them as you need to. Worse case is to buy a new grade 8 fine thread bolt to replace the bad one(s). Outer ones slip right up/out. Inner ones require cutting off the bolt head, as there is not clearance to remove them. On the inners, if replacing, install the bolt from the bottom/upside down. Same torque.

If you have questions, feel free to Private Message me.
Please keep this thread alive and refrain from a PM. It interests me as well...as others I suspect.

Brett, you do not say how much to torque them back down. Do you have the ft. lbs. that they should be?

Many thanks,
Chuck & Mitzi
'01 Safari Zanzibar 3646 (side entry)
Cat 3126B / Allison MD3060
Magnum M-Series "Blue Max" chassis
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland toad
CactusTwo
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:06 pm

Re: Ralph Andrew's excellent, easy to follow directions on adjusting ride height

Post by CactusTwo »

Here is a direct quote from Pioneer Metal's website
"Torque the bolts that hold the shim pack together (9/16-18) to 115 ft. lbs"
Len and Brenda Nugent
Alberta, Canada, fulltimers since 2012
1996 Safari Serengeti 3740 front door, bought in Feb 2019
Cat 3126 300hp, Allison MD3060, VelvetRide suspension
sold 2008 GMC Duramax 3500 and 37' Cedar Creek 5th wheel
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